Episode 11 - Introverted While Working with Special Guest Madeline Schwarz

What does it really mean to be an introvert in the modern workplace?

In this episode of Decoding the Unicorn, we explore how introversion shows up at work—with Communication & Career Coach / fellow introvert, Madeline Schwarz. From "you're too quiet" to "lead this presentation for me," introverts and HSPs have to navigate a veritable minefield in Corporate America.

Topics:

✔️ How introversion is misunderstood in the workplace.
✔️ When introverts feel pressured to "perform extroversion" just to get by.
✔️ Navigating high pressure / high stress environments, public speaking opportunities, etc., while introverted.
✔️ What can be done other than the old "just put yourself out there" advice that's not helpful.

Links:

https://www.madelineschwarzcoaching.com/get-clear

https://www.linkedin.com/in/madeline-schwarz-coach/

https://www.instagram.com/madeline.schwarz/

https://www.facebook.com/madelineschwarzcoaching

Sara's book Decoding the Unicorn: A New Look at Dag Hammarskjöld is available now! Click here to buy it on Amazon. 

Transcript

Transcription by Otter.ai.  Please forgive any typos!

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Introverted workers, public speaking, communication coach, workplace experiences, toxic boss, extrovert bias, networking strategies, leadership skills, mindset techniques, social media presence, personality brand, team dynamics, confidence building, corporate culture, introvert strengths.

Welcome to the Decoding the Unicorn podcast. Here's your host, Sara Causey.

Hello, Hello and thanks for tuning in. Welcome to Episode 11 of decoding the unicorn, the podcast we could loosely title today's episode, working while introverted. My special guest is Madeline Schwarz, if you're not familiar with her work, Madeline has been called a career therapist, Lifesaver and secret weapon before becoming a Communication Coach. Madeline spent years on the sidelines, being interrupted and talked over by the loudest voices in the room. Doesn't that sound familiar to all of us? On decoding the unicorn, conquering her fear of public speaking was one of the most transformative experiences of her adult life. It's the reason she's so passionate about teaching introverts to use their voice. Prior to starting a business, she designed and built window displays and brand experiences. She learned how to communicate a brand through the windows, how to get a message across in seconds, and how to invite customers into the store. Now, she helps other people communicate their stories and change conversations and meetings board rooms and on stage. She's worked with leaders and teams at many major companies, so I'm excited about today's episode. It's a great one. If you have ever been introverted while working, stay tuned.

Why is work like this? We need more leaders like Dag. Everyone in management should be required to read decoding the unicorn.

As I mentioned, I'm joined today by Madeline Schwarz and first and foremost, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day to join us.

 I'm excited to be here. Thanks, Sara. 

Yeah, you bet. So please tell us a little bit more about yourself. I know that that's typically not a question that every introvert is turning cartwheels to answer, but for people that might not be familiar with you and your work, I'd like to get a little proverbial 10 cent tour, and more specifically, I also want to learn about how your introversion has shaped your career path and your workplace experiences.

Okay, well, let me start with the first question. First, what I do? So what I really love about the work that I do now is that I help other people tell stories and really present their work in a way that their clients and their teammates can understand. And the way I got to doing this was I started off my career in a creative field. I was a window display designer, and I had a terrible fear of public speaking. I started this one job. I had to fly across the country for training, and when I was going on my first client meeting with my boss, he told me and the one other new hire that we were not to speak during the meeting. Oh, wow, right. And, you know, I found that a little bit weird, but I just kind of filed it away in the closet of curiosities at a new job. And then a few months later, he showed up at the office in New York and announced that I was presenting that day for this big client presentation. And you know, I had no warning, no preparation, no practice, and I was terrified, and I actually declined to do it. I had a little bit of a cold, you know, kind of plead up my cough, and I was like, No, I can't possibly do this presentation today. But that experience just haunted me for the rest of the time that I worked there, and I never wanted to be in that situation again. And that is really what drove me to I just drew a line in the sand when I left that job and decided that my fear of public speaking was not going to be the thing that dictated the rest of my career. And getting on the other side of that fear really was one of the most liberating experiences of my adult life, and that's why I am so excited to help other people get over their fear and develop that confidence, because one good presentation can change the trajectory of your entire career.

Absolutely, I agree, and it's such an interesting juxtaposition in this story, because on the one hand, you have this kind of toxic boss. What? I don't know the person, but I would label a toxic boss saying, don't speak when we get in this room, keep your mouth shut. But then the next thing you know, it's like, Hey, by the way, next time around, you're leading a presentation, so no pressure there, right?

Yeah, it's confusing. So. Employee. And also, you know, I was criticized for being too quiet. He told me, you know, another time that I was too quiet and that it was weird that I didn't speak more in client meetings. And while I imagine that he intended that feedback to get me to open up, it had the opposite effect, you know, I did not want to expose myself to any further public ridicule, so I shut down even more, and I also was never directed toward any resources that might have helped get over my future.

Yes, oh my gosh, so relatable. I think there are so many of us introverts and HSPs who have been told some variation of the exact theme, you're too quiet, you're weird. It reminds me of something that happened to me where one of the bosses at a workplace where I was told me we normally have to tell employees not to stand around by the coffee pot or the water cooler, chewing the cut and horsing around, but in your case, you really need to be more social. You really need to go and stand by the coffee pot and the water cooler and do some horsing around, because your colleagues think you're weird and cold and unapproachable. And I just thought, because I'm here to work, because I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, what I'm getting a paycheck for. I'm weird because I don't want to hang out at a coffee pot for a long time. So yeah, it definitely sends people a strange, mixed message in the workplace, and as soon as you're told you're too quiet, it just makes you feel even more like you need to get inside yourself.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a piece of feedback that I internalized for a long time because it was treated as a character flaw at that job. But now, you know, I really think of that as he was uncomfortable with the quiet, and that is really his personal problem and not mine, and it's one of the things that I work on a lot with my clients, because so many of them have had similar experiences where they've been given that kind of feedback and told, you know, that they need to speak up at work. And you know, the onus is so often put on the individual, and instead of looking at the structures that would create a safer environment for everyone to share their ideas at work? 

Yes, exactly. And this is a great segue to my next question. I really believe that by calling these things out, we can start to heal, we can start to process, we can start to move forward. And whenever I was writing my book, decoding the unicorn, and I was interviewing various introverts for different segments of the book, everybody, every single person, had at least one horror story about how they were mistreated, misinterpreted, maligned, etc, by corporate America. And I want to ask you, do you remember a time or two, or 10, maybe 20, when your introversion was misunderstood at work? And, you know, tell us about what happened and then how you handled it?

Yeah, well, I mean, there's so many examples, but definitely, you know, being told that it was weird to be quiet like that was a really, really painful experience that made me so self conscious for such a long period of time, and reclaiming that story now, you know, it's a story that I have told, and many workshops and events that I am hosting and that I have found incredibly healing, to be able to, you know, talk about it and acknowledge that being quiet or being introverted is not, in fact, a character flaw, that there is strength in silence, that quiet can be strategic, and it doesn't mean that you don't have anything to say. And so that's really been a big part of it for me, and then also finding the work of Susan Cain and reading her book really helped me understand myself and the many strengths and advantages that introverts have when it comes to workplace communication and leadership, and I think those those skills are so often overlooked.

Overlooked is a great word that's absolutely spot on. Absolutely. Have you ever felt, I think so many of us introverts and HSPs have at one point or another. Have you ever felt like a sense of pressure that you needed to fake being an extrovert or perform extroversion? And if. So what did that scenario look like for you?

I'm a terrible performer, so no, that never worked for me, but I do find I have. I have definitely talked myself into going to numerous networking events and and it's something that I used to hate doing and find really awkward and uncomfortable. And it's like any other skill, you know, a muscle that I have built up in something that I come to I come to enjoy. Like I would say, I'm the rare introvert that does like networking, but I have found strategies that work for me, like I like to meet new people, as long as it's in smaller groups and quieter spaces. So I most often avoid going to bars because they're too loud and over stimulating, and it's hard to have a real conversation and and hear people and and so I feel like I've gotten away from forgotten what the original question was.

No, this is, this is great information, because I'm actually, I'm listening to what you're saying about you found strategies that work for you, and you know that if you go to a mixer at a bar, for example, or like, a loud nightclub or something, it's going to be over stimulating. And it's just making me think about how knowledge of the self was something that was super important to Dag, and I'm hearing that from you now. You have figured out that I like to go networking sometimes, but I wouldn't necessarily want to go to a loud, crazy bar and pretend to be an extrovert and pretend that I was drawing strength from some loud, crazy environment.

And going back to your question about whether I ever felt the need to perform, this is a question that comes up in my work, so much so when I mean introverts at events, or people who want to work on public speaking and they think that they need to be more extroverted in order to improve their skills or to be a an effective speaker? And my answer is no, like that is not the way that's never going to feel good to an introvert. It is not how you are going to connect with your audience if it's ineffective and and so I'm really interested in all of the ways that introverts are ready great communicators and helping people see the strengths that they have because they are good listeners or because they're super observant and introspective, and you don't need to be the loudest person, or, you know, the most charismatic person on stage, like you don't need to be acting in order to be an effective public speaker. And I do find that public speaking when people can get over their fear, if they do have mind blocks around it when they can get over that. It is one of the most powerful tools for introverts, because it's a place where you don't have to compete for for the mic, right? You don't have to be the loudest you are. If you are speaking on stage or leading a meeting like you are, you are given people's attention, and that is a way that you can really highlight your ideas without having to be loud, without having to be the first to jump in. And so that's where I find it's actually a really good match for introversion. 

Oh, you're, you're speaking our language here at decoding the unicorn, because the whole loud performance, jazz hands being boisterous, feeling like you're going to need to win an Academy Award in order to get on stage. Yep, that you're, you're, you're right in alignment with the types of things we talk about. I want to, I want to zoom out a little bit and think about the overall culture, maybe people that you've interacted with in your practice. What are some ways that you feel that introverts are maybe undervalued or misjudged in today's work culture, broadly speaking, so many ways, in every work environment that I have been, corporate culture that I have been part of, people were definitely rewarded for being loud and talking too much, and it really wastes an incredible amount of time and other people's energy at work. And you know, there's also some research that shows that extroverts often get paid more. You know, they are more likely to be given promotions. And so it's important to think of all of those things in in. Context, and to also look at what you're missing out on when you are not hearing from the introverts on a team, because something like 51% of the population has a preference for introversion, and so if you're only hearing from the same five people in every meeting. That's a tremendous amount of brain power and creativity and innovation that you are missing out on from the most creative people on the team. And you know, another thing that I always remind my clients in leadership positions is that introverts also they're less likely to succumb to group think, and that's a big asset when you think of how a team is going to perform and how they are going to innovate, that that you have someone who's willing to not just go with the crowd and really stick to their intuition or their own ideas and be willing to raise objections.

Well, that makes total sense to me, and it gives me flashbacks to my own corporate career, because you're right. You wind up with these teams where there's three or four loud, boisterous, so called charismatic extroverts. And I think that managers have the tendency to think that if somebody is loud, they must be engaged. It's like they associate volume with engagement and passion, which is just simply not true. But you wind up with this team where there are three or four loud extroverts, and in my experience, they have tended to be loud extrovert Wasp men, and they rule the day. So then you wind up with this echo chamber of just like the same over and over again. And there might be some other people in the room that could solve the bottleneck, that could remove the problem that could generate more revenue, and then you're not even hearing from them, right, or that her details in those sales meetings that the loud, extroverted boss completely missed because they weren't really listening, because they were listening to the sound of their own voice instead of paying attention to what those clients or prospects were saying, and I found that situation come up all the time, having been on hundreds of meetings with my my boss, who was an amazing salesperson and presenter, but we so often heard different things in meetings, and I would have to say, no, no, no, That's not what they wanted. What they talked about was this, and so you want those people in a meeting who are going to pay that kind of attention?

Yeah, absolutely. This is another flashback too, because it's like there's a difference between listening to understand, hearing what's being said and what's not being said, being intuitive, being able to read between the lines, versus someone who is listening strictly because they want to hurry up and it's their turn to speak, or they want to hurry up and give a sales pitch, they want to hurry up and get back to the sales script. And it's like there were so many times when I was in staffing and recruiting, which is ipso facto a sales job when I would be sitting there and I'm like, were were we in the same interview? Did we, did we hear the same thing come out of the candidate's mouth? Or did we just take the same job assignment from same client? Because the other person would just be like, let's hurry up. I want to tell you that we've been in business for 20 years, and we filled dozens of roles like this, and we're this and we're that, and I'm like, Did you pay attention to the client at all? Maybe a little bit.

Yes. Very relatable.

Yes. So in these, let's say, meetings, maybe high stakes situation, high stimulation environments, public speaking opportunities, maybe, if somebody has been, you know, nervous about that idea of getting on stage with a microphone and speaking for the first time. What are some tactics that you have used to stay centered, to stay grounded and contribute meaningfully?

I find there are a few things that are really important. So the first is being very clear on the message that you want to convey. And when I work with clients, I make sure that they can articulate that in exactly one sentence, because if it's not clear to you, it's not going to be clear to anybody in your audience. And then the second thing is figuring out how to deliver it in a way that's going to be compelling and really resonate with your audience. And so you need to make sure that you are presenting your topic in a way that they care about, and then working on ways to calm the nervous system. And so I use a two prong approach and work with both physical techniques and cognitive techniques. So that people have a whole tool set that they could use when they are backstage about to, you know, go speak at a conference, or they're going to do that big client pitch, and a lot of business is on the line. And so I find that mindset is a really big part of this. A lot of people have heard of things like box breathing and certainly breathing techniques are incredibly helpful, but also find some additional like sensory techniques can very quickly just bring that level of anxiety down and then really building a mindset of confident communication. Because I think of communication not just as a skill set, but a mindset. And by that I mean how you think about yourself as a communicator, how you think about yourself as a leader. How you think about your abilities to converse or present in these high state situations? And so we work a lot on building new beliefs that support that.

That's excellent. So what suggestions do you have for introverts who are interested in leadership or high profile roles? So often, we're told, just put yourself out there. But that's not super helpful. That's not super specific. So what insights would you have?

Yeah, well, I don't like that advice either, because it again, puts all of the onus on you as the introvert, as opposed to looking at it as a shared responsibility of a team or the responsibility of a leader to create a more inclusive environment. And so I really work with people on not just building confidence for the individual, but how they can shift the team dynamics and the structures that might be preventing people from speaking up. And so some of the techniques that I use in team situations, or recommend to the leaders that I work with are one to switch up who's leading meetings um week to week. And so for any introvert who's in a position of influence or has a good relationship with their boss, like this is the way I would suggest approaching it not just looking at, you know, what you yourself can do, but like, how can you make it better for everyone on your team? So switching who's leading meetings is an incredible way to draw out new voices and really prepare people for those leadership positions before, before they need the skills, right? It's equipping people with leadership skills at all levels. And you know, if you're to the person who might not be in that position of influence, yet you can still volunteer. You could ask your boss, so the person who runs that meeting like, Hey, can I facilitate the next meeting? Like I have some other ideas that I would like to to bring another tactic that I find so helpful is establishing community guidelines. And by this, I mean conversation rules for four meetings. And one that I really like is 123, and me. So after you speak, you wait for three more people to speak before you jump in again. And so that's something that you can propose to to a team and get other people to agree to and it's a way that there can be group accountability amongst the team and create more space for other people. And then one of the things that is really helpful on a personal level for the individual contributor is to shift your mindset around your introversion. Because what I find in my work is it's not that introversion is a problem, it's that people think it's a problem. They think it's a disadvantage that you're not an extrovert, and they think that, you know, the extroverts are all better speakers, better presenters, and if you give like shift that thinking and stop thinking that you are automatically at a disadvantage by being an introvert and really start to own your own like own your. Style of communication that puts you in a position to communicate more effectively, more powerfully, more authentically and really not feel like you're always coming from a place of luck.

Very well said. So entrepreneurship and self employment is sometimes the answer. If somebody has been stuck in a toxic team, a toxic work environment, they may just get to a point where they say, much like I did when I left corporate America, I think I just want to go out on my own. I think I would rather freelance than be in this kind of toxic machine over and over again. But sometimes that's not the answer. Sometimes people would rather plug in and be an intrapreneur, or they'd rather lead an important organization, like dad did, so for an introvert who might be considering starting a business, or maybe they're thinking about a full time freelancing desk, and knowing that they're they will be more visible. Or maybe somebody is an entrepreneur, they want to stay but they want to become a department head or a VP in the company, and they know that that visibility is coming. What suggestions do you have for managing that anxiety and being able to say, I want to go for the dream here, I want to do it and and not but, but, and at the same time, I want to make sure that I'm honoring my introversion and I'm showing up as my best self.

So I would really think about boundaries that are going to work for you. Think about the like taking small, incremental steps. So for instance, when I first started my business, putting anything on social media was terrifying. I had not used social media at all. Personally, I guess I had a LinkedIn profile, but I was not active there and and I didn't have a Facebook account. I didn't use Instagram like I was not, I did not have a public profile, and that felt deeply, deeply uncomfortable to start posting on social media even when I wasn't posting anything remotely personal and and, you know, I would write something because I do like to write, but hitting publish, or, you know, just editing and re editing and wordsmithing that that required a lot of energy, and actually putting it out there, you know, hitting publish and return was so anxiety inducing. And so what I would say is take small, incremental steps and celebrate the progress. Right? If it takes you a week to publish something at the beginning, and you only do it four times a year, and then you get to you can do it in three days, and you start doing it once a month, like that is something to celebrate. So instead of diving in and being like, Okay, now I'm going to post on whatever social media platform of choice every single day, maybe start with something that feels a little bit more attainable at the beginning, so that there's less pressure, and you can celebrate the small wins and build momentum instead of feel like a failure because you haven't lived up to your own arbitrary expectations that you have set for yourself. So that is one thing, then the second thing is, I would really look at like, find the things that you are willing to share that. You don't have to share everything. You know, you're always gonna see people on social media that are sharing, you know, all facets of their life. I still don't do that. You know, I occasionally share personal things, but not a ton, and I certainly it's a lot easier to share than it used to be, but I have also made decisions about like, what in my life I want to share with my community, because they get to know me better, and what things are still personal. And one of my very good friends and frequent business collaborators, she has developed something called personality brand, and I love that concept that you can still keep things personal, but share your personality with people. And that has been very helpful for me as an introvert. And then, you know, the third thing that I have found true for myself and for many, many clients is that, you know, introverts often have this idea or have been fed messaging that they are. You know that public speaking and introversion don't match, but again, I think it is a. Um one of the most powerful tools that you can use, because you automatically have an entire rooms attention if you are the speaker and that you know it, it doesn't require being a performer like you don't have to put on extrovert clothes in order to have a successful business or develop an audience and and so I would encourage people to think about leveraging that as a skill and as a potential way to be visible without Having to share all those personal parts of your life that you might still want to keep private.

Makes a lot of sense. So last but not least, certainly, if listeners are resonating with what you're saying, they want to keep up with you and the work that you're doing, where would you like for them to go? 

Yeah, so there are two places to find me my website, which is Madeline Schwartz coaching.com I also have a free resource on my website to help people with their presentations. It especially if they are new or nervous about public speaking. And the other good place to find me is on LinkedIn. And if you're searching for me, my last name is spelled Schwarz.

Awesome. Well, we'll make sure that those links are available. And I just want to thank you so much. This has been an enlightening conversation, as well as some strolls down memory lane, some of the same things that you've encountered are very similar, and I know will resonate a lot with the other introverts and HSPs listening. So I want to thank you again for taking time to join us.

It's my pleasure. It was so great to talk to you, Sara,

Thanks for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's episode, please remember to like, share and subscribe. I'll see you next time.

Thank you for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to this podcast and share it with others. We'll see you next time.